Episode 5: Lori Ann LaRocco

Chapter 1

Intro

All right, she's an American journalist at CNBC, Maritime trade columnist at Freightwaves, author of, by my count, six books - all available for sale on Amazon and most importantly, mom of three. Hello again, I am your host Blythe Brumleve, I'm proud to welcome in Lori Ann LaRocco as one of the first official guests of "Maritime Means...", a podcast by Spire Maritime dedicated to building a community of innovators. Lori, welcome in.

Thank you for having me.

Chapter 2

Lori's start

Lori fell into covering the global supply chain. She loves maritime and used to go fishing with her dad every weekend. She also wrote Dynasties of the Sea and has always been interested in trade, one of the most under-appreciated sectors in the world.

Absolutely. Now, before we get into, you know, just a slew. We were talking, you know, just briefly on camera before this started, all of the issues that are going on in the global supply chain, according to trade and all the concerns that are there. But before we get into all of those difficulties, let's back it up a little bit - how did you start covering the global supply chain?

You know, I kind of just fell into it. I know a lot of people at CNBC. I've been there for over 22 years and I developed a really good rapport with the folks over at Marine Money and, you know, we were just chatting, and I said "Well I love Maritime" and I told him I used to go fishing on my dad's 16 foot, yellow - bright yellow - fishing boat every weekend, and we can go fishing for fluke and flounder, and kind of just started from there. And I wrote, you know, Dynasties of the Sea, and I've always been very intrigued with trade, and it really is one of the most under-appreciated sectors in the world and 90% of everything in our home comes on a vessel. So why not to dig into it?

Chapter 3

Current state of the ocean highway

Trade is a series of pipes. You want them to be unencumbered, not clogged, and flow freely. There were diversions in trade with the pandemic. If you don’t have people moving products, you will not have a trade. The maritime superhighway is clogged because the human element has been compromised.

And I love that you brought that up because that was one of the books that I was reading through to prep for this interview, because you said in the 2019 Book "Trade War - Containers Don't Lie: Navigating the Bluster" that with 90% of the world's economy moved by Maritime transport, that the Ocean Highway is the best way for anyone to gauge the status of trade talks, as well as monitor the flow of trade. Now obviously with every industry being sort of upended over the last couple of years because of Covid-19, what does the current Ocean Highway look like now compared to 2019?

Ufff - Well, the way that I describe trade, and I start that with the book is - a lot of people don't understand it, so we're highly interconnected - trade is a series of pipes. And so what happens is normally you want pipes to be unencumbered, not clogged and just flowing freely. With the "Trade War", I explained to the readers how elbows in pipes were created to divert trade away from China and, say, to go to Vietnam. Or China teaming up with Russia, versus teaming up with the United States. And so you had all these diversions of trade. With the pandemic - and what I saw was - I took that analogy and I applied it to the fact that trade takes people; pandemics kill people. So if you do not have people to move the trade, to move the drayage, right - that's the Scrabble word for the truck that moves the container from the port to the warehouse, and the warehouse to the port, right? If you don't have people moving that product, you're not going to have trade. And so when I saw what was happening at the very beginnings, in 2020 of January, I saw that Wuhan's port productivity fell, like it just was collapsing. That's because trade takes people. So when you look at the maritime superhighway now, unfortunately it's a lot of - I call them the hairballs of trade. It's literally clogging all the various pipes going - Asia to the United States, Europe to the United States, they're all over because the human element, if you will, has been compromised and has been in impacted.

Chapter 4

Trade lanes

Lori doesn’t think there are current trade lane relations that are working as well as they should. The world's biggest problem is the ever-changing and rebranding of China’s zero COVID. The maritime “pipelines” will continue having “hairballs” because of these constrictions within the trade. Vessels are being bunched up, causing a contagion of congestion.

The hairballs, as you say - are there any trade lanes, right now, or trade relations, that are working well?

Not really. I mean, in all honesty - I know, it's like I never have anything good to say, it's kind of sad, but I do explain it, so, you know - I'm not just complaining.

It is what it is.

It is what it is. But when you look at the biggest problem that the world has is this ever-changing, ever rebranding of China's zero covid. So now it's called Dynamic Covid. Well, I really don't care. You're shutting down a manufacturing plant, people can't move out of their house, you're killing trade. And so until you have China literally rip off the Band-Aid and do what every other country in the world is doing - getting back to work, dealing with the fact that populations get sick, we are going to continue to have these hairballs, because even with the intra-Asia pipeline - so that's the pipeline where you have Vietnam, Malaysia, Cambodia, that's where a lot of US companies left, right, when they had the trade War, they were trying to avoid the tariffs, so they moved to Vietnam. Well, you're making your Poncho, but your zipper is being made in China. So if China is not making the zipper right now, because they're closed, your product cannot be fulfilled in China. So unfortunately, because of these constrictions within trade, it literally just bunches up the vessels and then you get the contagion of congestion.

The country of China have this outlook of zero Covid policy, the new phrase that they're using now. Why are they doing this?

Well they're doing it because they have a very elderly population, as we all know. Also, that population is not really vaccinated. The lack of trust in the Chinese community for their own vaccines is quite high. So they're not getting it. And so, as a result, you're not getting even a herd immunity, if you will, of people getting sick, it's just because of the age demographic. And so that's what's going on.

That makes sense. So, from a geo-political perspective, there's obviously a lot of other things going on, between Russia and Ukraine, and you know, that part of the world. How often - I mean, I assume that geo-political issues are affecting global trade all of the time. But, from a world leader perspective, do world leaders, especially in times of crisis, do they respect trade lanes? Mostly? Or does it sort of doesn't matter in times of war?

When you're looking at the flow of trade, you're looking at trade agreements, they are upheld even in times of war. Unfortunately, when it comes to the trade agreement that the United States has, quote, inked with China, it's been an absolute joke. Phase one trade was never met. The obligations were never met by the Chinese, and I recently broke a story, and I even connected the dots to the Biden administration, and nothing ever happened. But the doubts are this: the United States has had a dramatic drop in US-loaded exports, and those exports are predominantly agriculture, the reason why were the ocean carriers wanted to get back to fill their vessels with the more expensive product, the Chinese exports, cuz that's where they were making the $20,000-$25,000 per container, ours were like $1,000. So what would you do? You know, you're going to go for the more expensive product. But the interesting thing was, after I did all this data and I pulled which carriers are denying the trade, the two biggest offenders were the Chinese-owned and operated ocean carriers. Now, I guess if there's a lack of common sense when it comes to trade, because honestly, if they own and operate those containers, they could put our loaded agriculture goods that they were supposed to buy, by Law, by agreement. They could have put them on their vessels, but they did not. And now we're at this point where the Biden administration will probably try to knock down those Trade Agreement numbers.

So it sounds like it's a mess.

Oh it's an absolute mess, but you don't even put the onus on the government. It's like you operate your own carrier, so you're not charging - are you going to to charge yourself to put those experts on? No. Just put them on. But they won't.

Chapter 5

Reasons

There was a huge reason why the trade negotiations between the US and China abruptly stopped in 2019. The reason was that China made a deal with Russia to cultivate soybeans on their land instead. Lori says that don’t think that there’s no reason that something stops suddenly. There always is. You just have to dig for that reason.

Has it always been messy like what it feels like right now? Or has there ever been calm seas when it comes to Maritime trade outside of China?

Now when it comes to Maritime trade outside of China, it's fine. You know, you have your diplomacy and things like that, the problem is China, China operates by their own rules, they always have. It's always built on their own destiny, I mean, when you look at the "Trade War" book that you brought up that I wrote,  when you look at the timeline of trade, and I have this phrase "Containers don't lie", because they don't, it's a physical resemblance of trade, it tells you what's going on. During the time, and it was in the Summer of 2019, you may remember at one point, the trade negotiations abruptly stopped, and there was no reason, Trump gave no reason as to why they were pulling out. Well, the reason was, about three days before Mnuchin was going to China, and USTR Lighthizer was supposed to go there to negotiate, China inked a deal with Russia for Chinese farmers to go and cultivate soy beans on Russian land. So, what did that tell you? Our great, beautiful, awesome soy beans were not needed as much. It was like a spit in the face, and that was the reason why those talks at that time stopped. So there's always a reason, don't ever think that there's no reason to why something stops. You just have to dig for the reason.

Chapter 6

Future trades

In the world of trade, the biggest threat is uncertainty. The way to eliminate uncertainty is to control as much of your destiny as the supply chain.

That's really good. And speaking of your book, and another book that you wrote, "Dynasties of the sea", you provide critical insight into the psychology of today's generation of shipping giants, how they view risk, politically, economically and environmentally. What do they see as far as transpiring in the world of tomorrow? What's going on today that could lay the groundwork for how trade is going to work in the future?

Well you're seeing it now, and it's really quite exciting, the pandemic, while the ocean carriers have been villified for the amount of money that they've made, right? We've seen the headlines. If you are a shareholder of an ocean carrier, you are cheering them, because they've been able to use that money that they've made to buy airlines, to buy warehouses, to buy trucking, and they are controlling their supply chain. In the world of trade, the biggest threat is uncertainty. The way to eliminate uncertainty is to control as much of your destiny, which is your supply chain, your logistical supply chain, and ocean carriers are doing that right now.

Chapter 7

Problems

A problem with the maritime industry is arrogance. New entrants come in every generation, and they think they’re smarter but end up repeating the problems of the previous generation. The biggest problem is the overbuilding of vessels.

The interesting thing is, and what I hit on in "Dynasties of the sea" - I think it was Dagfinn Lunde, he was a banker at the time, and he said, the problem with Maritime is that you have new entrants that come in every generation, and they think they're smarter than the older ones. But they repeat the same exact problems that were created by the previous generation because they think they're smarter, the arrogance. The biggest problem that ocean carriers have is the overbuilding of vessels, because you don't want to have too many vessels out there, because if you have so much capacity, it's going to cheapen the price of your delivery. And so, next year, we have coming on hand, larger vessels, and as you know, you have vessels that can carry over like 25,000 containers, it's insane. You have all these new ones coming in, because people were overzealous thinking that consumers are going to be pigs, right? And buy as much as possible for the foreseeable future. That's not going to happen. We're not going to go back to pre-2019 levels, but the superpeak that we saw when we were all jammed in our homes, that's not going to happen again. So we will see how that transpires, but it's really exciting to see how they're expanding their universe, so they could capture more dollars within their supply chain.

As you bring up the larger vessels, and how there's already congestion going on predominantly in US ports, is that going to be eased any time soon with these larger vessels, because there's only so many ports that can take in these larger vessels, so is that a improvement with these larger vessels? Or is there going to be more trouble on the horizon?

There's going to be more trouble on the horizon, and here's why. So I created what's called a US supply chain heat map for CNBC, and I did these heat maps for Europe and Asia as well, and what it shows you - it shows you the different buckets with in the trade, remember I told you trade is a series of pipes, so the first thing you need to know is, can I get on a vessel? Yes, I can. Can I get a container? That's another important part. Then, can I move my truck? So when you look at all these various buckets, you're able to analyse how efficient a port is, once a vessel leaves anchor to come in. Now, the East Coast ports are very efficient compared to the West Coast ports, day and night. But, because of the diversion of trade, because you have more East Coast trade coming now, more than ever, because of the congestion on the West Coast, coupled with fears of a possible labor strike from the water shoremen, you have a backup. So picture a funnel going into a teeny, tiny pipe. You're trying to pour the ocean into a little teeny, tiny spigot, what's going to happen? It's going to get backed up. So while you're efficient at the ports, moving out the containers, you're receiving more, 20, 30 times more, so eventually that will clog the system, or it'll slow down.

Why is the East Coast more efficient than the West Coast?

I think for the fact that they have more land. When you look at LA and Long Beach, I mean my Lord, you got people that literally live right next to the port, so they are limited, and from a safety standpoint, you can only stack your containers oh so high, before they become a life-threatening threat. So with - like Savannah, they've been able to really expand their footprint, with pop-up yards that are close by from the port, whereas with LA and Long Beach, you might have to track it out a little bit, you have got to be creative, because when you're looking at a port, there's a phrase called land capacity, and that means how much land is being taken up, okay?, by a container. Now, optimal efficiency for a port, so you can move the cranes, move people around safely, and tracks, is around 70 to 75%. That's as much as you want to be full. The Port of Los Angeles right now, as of last week, was 90% full. So if you have less movement to move around those containers, that's also going to slow you down. So, the ability on the East Coast to expand their footprint, to get those containers out of there, enables them to process them a lot better and more efficiently.

From the United States as a whole, how do we stack up against the rest of the world when it comes to port efficiency?

Not that great. I mean, we're okay, the European ports are fairly efficient, although right now you've got labor strikes that are impeding the flow of trade there immensely. The ports in China, they're 24 hours a day, and they're manned 24 hours. We really do not have any ports that are truly 24 hours. You have one terminal, at the port of Long Beach, that was offering 24 hour service, but in order to have ports that run 24 hours, every stakeholder, every piece within that bubble of the port needs to be working 24 hours a day, and nobody wants to work 24 hours a day here, and that's the problem.

And we had also briefly touched on the issue that's going on with rail right now, because that's also impacting the port congestions, especially on the West Coast. Can you break it down for the folks who aren't that familiar with rail?

The port of LA and the port of Long Beach both have what's called "on-dock rail", which means you literally have rail right there. Whereas the port of Oakland is off-dock, they've got to truck it over to where the rail is. So, the port of Long Beach and the port of LA, they have on-dock, and back in March of this year, Gene Seroka went to the two railroads, BNSF and UP, saying, hey guys, we are getting a lot of requests for rail. Can you please send down chassis, the rail chassis, so we can load up containers. Those chassis were not in the right area. So it took time for those chassis to get to those two ports. It was too little too late. So presently over 60% of all containers at the port of - it's called San Pedro, the San Pedro basin, but it's really Long Beach and LA - 60% of all of those containers are destined for rail and they're all backed up. You have 1.5 billion dollars in trade, landlocked. Nowhere to go, because they are waiting, and those and those containers have been waiting for over 9 days. So it's not like I'm counting the ones that just got in. I'm just counting the ones that have been waiting for 9+ days.

What are the inefficiencies with rail that are keeping them from moving? Why are they so backed up? Why can't they keep their trains running, as they say in regards to trucks?

So, the problem is the ocean carriers will tell you the importer, if you want to use rail, what rail line service they want their container on? So, with the ocean carriers, remember they're making a lot more money sending back in empty, right? They don't care about making money on the US, they send that container back to China, make a buttload of money, and so on. They don't want that container to go inland that far, or to different inland ports, because they won't get it back as quickly. So they are restricting the flow of trade within the pipes of the railroad trade. I spoke with the port of Utah, which is an inland port, and they service probably the port of Long Beach, Oakland and then they do a lot on the Midwest, and up towards Chicago. They would love to get some more route service, but the ocean carriers don't dictate it. They don't want it, because they're going to lose, their going to disperse the volume of their containers, and they want to keep tight control of them, and that's the reason why. And then also, the rail - they lost a lot of labor during the pandemic, they have had a history of being very lean from a labor standpoint, and so they don't also have to be fred up so they can have bodies to help move the containers within the rail.

Is this a problem that's only exclusive to the US, or is this typically how freight moves throughout the global, where it arrives, obviously on a vessel, and then is it immediately - maybe in European countries, or Asian countries - is it offloaded to rail? Or is the US unique in that that's our flow of goods?

No, not at all, rail is very very common in all the ports around the world, one of the biggest problems that we're seeing right now is this massive labor strife in Europe, and over in Europe this has been going now for almost 2 months. The union workers over in Germany, they want to have a labor contract where the price of inflation is automatically built into their paycheck every year, they want that reoccurring every year, because Germany right now, they're getting socked, compared to other countries around the world, with inflation because of the war. And so, what has happened is, they've had - they called it warning strikes, where they might have a shift or two that's down, they've just recently - they're coming off of a 48-hour strike, and what's happening is, you're having rail back up so much where one logistics company had 200 containers at the Port of Hamburg just sitting there, waiting to get on a vessel, but they couldn't. And so, literally, you've got rails stuck on the railroad. And they call - when you look at the other areas within the port, or outside the port, it's called the hinterland - and so the hinterland is where you get your empty containers, you know, if they go in, they go out, they flow. Now, you're lucky to get to the hinterland, or get out, because the rail has just dropped, like a rock, and so you're looking at a 2-month backup of European exports coming to America. And that includes your parts for automobiles, lithium batteries, Ikea furniture, all of these products are coming from those ports, and they can't, because the rail is either clogged or the ports are just kaput, because people aren't working.

Chapter 8

Making trade topics relatable

Lori makes trade topics relatable by making people care. She relates the trade industry to what everyone has at home and how the global trade will also affect what commodities you are used to.

When you're going through all of this information, and you're trying to make it relatable - because you're a fabulous journalist, and you have been for a very long time, and you would mention that some of this stuff, it doesn't really sound too interesting at the surface level for the common public I guess to care about this, but you had made an interesting point about how, to make folks care, you have to put it in terms that they're going to understand, such as you're not going to get that Christmas gift, if you want that new BMW you have to wait for the chip to be supplied. How are you using complex topics like this and making it relatable for a lot of your broadcast?

It's all about news you can use, and why do you care? I mean, people did not care about trade, they took it for granted; you know, you bought something from Amazon, you got it the next day. Well, there are so many different facets between you click that button and you get the product. You know, we needed toilet paper, couldn't get it. And then it was like, wow, what is this thing called trade? And so people never realize the amount of product that we bring in, and it's 90% in your home. And so, for me to tell you why you should care - that's why I dropped it - like with Germany, "why do i care about Germany?". Well, your Beemer - if you need a muffler, you might be waiting a while. You know, a lithium battery? You might be waiting on your electric vehicle that you've wanted for so long. Your Italian meats and cheeses, your wine, your champagne. Everything that you want, comes on these vessels and there are delays. And what happens is - remember, going back to the the tray pipes, right? Everything flows together? Well, if you have a vessel that is stuck in Hamburg because of the labor strike, it's then going to be delayed when it goes all throughout Europe, to pick up all the really great items that we want to get - you know, our Burberrys, our Louis Vuittons, whatever it may be, and then it heads to New York. It's going then to be delayed, further, going to all the East Coast ports. So it's just this massive chain of hairball congestion, and that hairball keeps on growing because of one specific thing, which is the lack of people.

When you're looking at all of these different data points for research, for articles and stories that you're going to create, what sort of sticks out to you on a regular basis? You mentioned that you created a US supply change heatmap. What kind of data exists that helps you do your job better?

I'm really lucky where I've gone to know a lot of people throughout the years, and I have 14 different datasets that I use for the supply chain heat map, and I actually have competitors, and within the flow of trade there has been this thing of "I don't want to share my data, my proprietary data". Well, when it comes to the flow of trade, you really just need to know the container number, right? Where are things going, that way you can track the flow of trade. So I look at drayage - how quickly are things moving? I look at how long is a vessel at anchor? How long is it at port, when it goes in and out? That gives you some keen insight, if you will, into port productivity. And then also, how are the pipes beyond the port? Be it the rails, the truck drivers. How fast are those containers leaving or entering the port? There are all these facets within the world of trade that help give you insight, if you will, into how things are moving, and then I also use technology where I look into the bills of lading to see if deliveries are coming in late, or if things are coming in early, and for example, in the port of New York and New Jersey, they started receiving Christmas trees as early as April, which the port of New Jersey told me, she has never seen that happen. So it's really fascinating to see what people do, to try to gain certainty within their inventory.

Chapter 9

Biggest challenge

The biggest challenge for Lori is immediacy. It’s the urgency to release news right on the clock. She feels like she has to get it out on social media because she feels that she has an obligation that people that follow her need to know as soon as possible.

So with using all of this technology, and data points that you have access to, you've been working with with CNBC for more than 22 years now. What is the biggest challenge that exists now that maybe didn't exist when you first started?

For me it's the immediacy, because you have to - it's that urgency that, at least for me as a reporter, you know, you got to get it out to LinkedIn. You have to get it out on Twitter. You have to report on this. And so for me, I get this data, and as soon as I get it, I have this internal clock where it's like ticking down in my head, where I have to get it out, because I feel like I need to. Because the community that follows me, I feel an obligation that they deserve to know as soon as possible. And so, for me, it's very hard to slow down. You know what I mean? In today's world because - I mean, my goodness, when I first started, you know, dating myself, I didn't have a computer. When I was a journalist we didn't have that, you know, 20 something years ago, you know - it's so different now.

How long would it take you to prepare a story 22 years ago versus now? I mean, it sounds like it's almost immediate that you have to get a story out now, whereas maybe you had a week's time to put together a story?

Gosh, when I was in local news, you just started having the dotcom era, back in the early 90s, so there really wasn't harness, there was no Twitter, or if there was I wasn't on it. But that immediacy of breaking the news wasn't there, I mean news doesn't stop anymore, and I think the challenges to get on the radar, if you will, because of the deluge of the news, it's very very hard, and so that's why if I'm talking about trade - like this week, I wanted to give you the dollar amount of how much is congested, because people could relate. Like, wow, 31 billion dollars of trade is stuck at Sea on both sides of the coast? I mean, that's like a wowzer, like "wow". So, you know, there's ways of trying to tell that story, to breathe life into it and to make a relatable.

What about the role of women in supply chain and how that has evolved? Where do you think there still needs to be - obviously you're a pioneer in that regard where you're covering this industry for so long, but I still feel like there's probably some areas that still need to be improved? Where would you say that, within supply chain, the role of women could still be improved?

I would say almost like in every facet, to be quite honest, I mean, i've been quite lucky to meet amazing, amazing female CEOs of container companies, of trucking companies, data companies, which is great, it'd be great to have more female representation across the board, as you know, be it on boards, and things like that. And it's great to have female truck drivers, but also at the same time - and it's funny, because I getz asked quite a lot, because you know, I'm a female in a male-dominated industry. I've gotten mansplained more times than I care to imagine, but I really don't care. I mean, I just slip it on its head and I kind of smack you around with my knowledge and then you realize, okay, I'm not at tart, you know. But I don't think females out there should be considered like a novelty, I mean, we kick ass just as much as they do, and sometimes we're more creative and more open to suggestions, versus the older male generations where they might have been handed the reins, so to speak? It's also - you have more American executives now entering the fold, versus European, which is a totally different cultural mindset as well. But I think, you know, this is just the beginning, if you will, of females making their mark, and making a positive mark, and changing logistics in Maritime.

If you had to give advice to women that are maybe in college or high school and looking to join this industry, what piece of advice would you give them?

Don't ever make yourself - don't change your exterior. Don't make yourself look like a guy in order to be taken seriously, I've seen way too many women not wear makeup, not look cute, like - look very manly. Just so they could be an executive, whereas I'm like - no, you're a girl, look the part, if you want it. But, you know, you have to work twice as hard and you have to realize that, and that's just unfortunately the nature of the business, but once you do crack that, you own it, and don't ever make excuses for yourself or don't ever feel bad, if you're trying to give yourself credit for something that you uncovered, that you created, always be a team player, of course, but don't ever discount yourself or your ability, because once you do that, it's a crack and then folks seize on it. So you just have to lean it, and if people think you're a strong-willed or, you know, a bitch or whatever they might call you, so be it, but if you're right and your first as a journalist and people value your opinion and you're right, that's all that really matters. You're in this industry for yourself, life is too short not to give it a hundred percent, because this is what you want to do. Why I have someone dictate the terms?

I love that. I love the ability to be able to embrace my femininity and then also work hard as well. And those two things can coexist perfectly fine if you want them too. If you don't, that's fine too.

Exactly.

With respect to all of the books that you've written, and I think it's six that that I counted, with all of the books. I know you're not supposed to pick a favorite, but do you have a favorite book that you've written?

I love to "Trade War" book because I worked very hard as a journalist, because as a journalist you should not care what I think, my job is to tell you the news, and I use it with fact. And that book - I had both the Trump administration, as well as the Democratic party, use my data and they spun it to their own needs. So that shows you that I was able to write a book that was right down the middle where you, yourself as a reader can internalize it and take the data as your own? And so that is very important to me, and then my other book that I really truly love, is "Opportunity knocking", because that is about leadership strategies, because I'm so fortunate to have really been able to speak with individuals, from around the world, that are so awesome, to get their tips of being the best that you can be. For me, for somebody that wants to be an entrepreneur, or someone that just wants to be a better employee or manager, to me that book meant the world.

What would be one of those tips from that book, that you can leave the listeners with?

You have to be present, and it doesn't matter if you're a billionaire or if you're the mailroom guy. You walk that person to and from the door in an interview, you value their opinion, you come on time. And then, in the end, you handwrite a thank you note, because handwriting, versus sending a text or whatever, shows that you took the time to say thank you. And so, all of these leaders that I've ever met, it's that personal touch and that awareness, and that being humble, is what sets you apart from the others.

One more question before we wrap up this interview, if I could give you a magic wand and you could fix the global supply chain, what would be the Lori Plan?

Ufff - well, first off, we would have to have 24 hour ports at all ports. We know it's not going to happen, but in the world of Lori, that's what I would want and I would want Zero Covid gone. And if we had those - at least with the United States, because the trans-pacific trade route is the largest, and influences the most for the world, that would really help the flow of trade.

Alright, Lori, thank you so much for your perspective, where can folks follow more of your work, buy all your books, all that good stuff?

Well, they can follow me on Twitter, and so it's my name, and then on LinkedIn, I am constantly writing a lot of updates, I write for American Shipper, for Freightwaves and of course, I report and write for CNBC and CNBC.com.

Lori, appreciate your time, and perspective, it has been rad to talk to you, So I appreciate your time today.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

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